From Mines to Markets: Unpacking India’s Critical Mineral Strategy | ft.  Abhinav Sengupta

[Podcast intro]

Welcome to the season five of the India Energy Hour podcast. This podcast explores the most pressing hurdles and promising opportunities of India energy transition through an in depth discussion on policies, financial markets, social movements and science. Your hosts for this episode are Shreya Jai, Delhi based energy and climate journalist and Dr. Sandeep Pai, Washington based energy transition researcher and author. The show is produced by 101 reporters, a pan India network of grassroots reporters that produces original stories from rural India. If you like our podcast, please rate us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts or the platform where you listen to our podcast. Your support will help us reach a larger audience.

Like other peers, India has increasingly started focusing on securing critical minerals for its energy and industrial sectors. From lithium and cobalt to rare earth elements, these minerals are essential for clean technologies like batteries, solar panels, and wind turbines. As the world races to secure these resources, India is looking to position itself strategically. But, how big is India’s mining sector today, and how much could it grow in response to rising global demand? Can India realistically find its space when China and the West are in a geopolitical race for critical minerals? What does India’s evolving critical minerals policy look like, and who are the major players – especially state-owned enterprises?

To help us unpack these questions, we speak with Abhinav Sengupta, energy and mining expert who brings deep insights into India’s policy and industrial strategy around critical minerals.

[end]

[Podcast interview]

Sandeep Pai: Hi, Abhinav. Really wonderful to have you finally. I’ve been a long time follower of your work, and your LinkedIn and social media posts are so informative. You’re full of graphics and presentations, and you simplify really complex mining and related topics, for lay audience who don’t have time to, you know, dive into the large and vast policy landscape. So, really,  I’m surprised that we haven’t had you before, but really glad to have you finally. So welcome

Abhinav Sengupta: Thank you so much, Sandeep. And, even, I’m really feeling grateful for being part of this, India Energy Hour. And even I was closely following your post as well as this podcast, so I’m very excited to be a part of this. Thank you so much for having me here.

Sandeep Pai: Wonderful. So, you know, we wanna start with you. You as a person, like, how did you get interested in climate and energy issues? Where are you from? What did you study? What’s your background?

Abhinav Sengupta: Okay. So of all, I born and brought up in Rajasthan, Ajmer. And both my parents were working in the Indian Bureau of Mines, which is, again, a, you know, central government mining organization. Perhaps it’s a regulatory body, and both of them were employed there. So I born and brought up in Rajasthan, studied in a vernacular medium. Then due to the transferable nature of my job, of my parents’ job, they later on later part of life, they got transferred to Nagpur, which is again the Central India, Maharashtra, where I did my remaining schooling from nine to twelve. And, I was always preparing for this competitive examinations, and it so happened that I managed to get into one of the premier engineering colleges. I did it from NIT, Nagpur. And I was getting these three branches, like, to be very candid, civil metrology and mining. And my father I still remember during the counseling time, my father told me directly that, no if you study mining, you will not be, you know, you will not be unemployed because there are plenty of jobs and very few people take this up. So with this instinct, I just joined mining. And then, my journey started in 2005. I joined the NIT, NACOR, and I graduated in 2009. So, to be very short and during my mining days, I was not that I was a good student overall. But, to be very honest, understanding the mining dynamics when you see the mines, when you, you know, when you visit, during your excursions as well as summer training, you get to no idea that whether you want to pursue it or not. And for me, at that time, it was a complete no because there were so many alternatives at level. Like, people want to get into IT or MBA. So all those things were in mind. Then I got to I surprisingly got it into, consulting right off of my campus. So I had a couple of offers, one with Coal India Limited and one with Tata Consulting Engineers. So in Tata Consulting Engineers Limited, it was a consulting profile. So I was very excited to join. I need not leave any mining sector. I need not go to the field also, but still remain in the consulting domain. So I started my career there. I was there in Tata Consulting Engineers for 3 years. I get into this core engineering technical form, I mean, consultancy, which includes preparation of DPR, feasibility, mine planning, all technical stuff, which exactly is the dream of any mining engineer who get into this kind of consulting role. So I happen to do that. But, also, surprisingly, I didn’t get that interest doing that work when I was thinking, no. Let’s go for MBA, do something else, and then, you know, the grass is always greener on the other side. So then I started pursuing my I started getting competitive exam. Didn’t do much fairly well, but I land up myself in a very specific, you know, sector focused college called School of Petroleum Management, which is Pandit Deendayal  and now this term is Energy University, Pandit Deendayal Energy University situated in Gandhi Nagar. So my pedagogy of MBA was energy and infrastructure. So then I did my MBA in energy infrastructure. It’s a two year regular program where you study all the nuances of the energy sector, which includes oil and gas, power, geothermal, renewables, non conventional, conventional, everything. Also, the infra part, the infrastructure part, which includes your road, you know, material handling, your bridges, aviation, everything. So entire infrastructure part also. So I did that study, and I did it very seriously because I understood that now this is the last chance. And after MB, I need to land up a good job. And, it’s not that top tier college, but, yes, the pedagogy was excellent. The professor was very good. And so it intrigued my interest in learning that thing. And then then and there, I started, you know, taking interest in reading everything. Like, if I’m reading I’m reading oil and gas, I’m reading power. No matter whether I have seen a power plant or not, whether I have seen a oil field or not, but I am reading. I started reading. So I started reading everything by then. And then after that, I got through campus placement. I got into Wipro Technologies, which is again an IT firm. And, it’s a global MNC. And, now, I was there as a business analyst. I started my journey. I was there for one and a half years. The profile was quite satisfying, but, you know, I was looking for core competency, like, getting into mining again. I don’t know how that happened. Then I joined a boutique consulting firm. I left at Wipro. I’m in a lucrative career. I joined a boutique consulting firm in Nagpur, and I studied. I mean, I worked there again. And, I started learning everything from scratch. Those eighteen months, twenty months in that boutique consulting firm name as Accino Capital Services Limited, I started gaining ground and confidence in the center, you know, overall mining thing. And then from there, my journey started to get back into the mining sector. Then I was inducted in the Delib Buildcon Limited. It’s a mining contractor firm. It’s in Bhopal. So I was there for almost, one and a half, one and a half years. I learned the you know, just from the consulting, I get into the industry part. That’s the only instance I get into the industry sector. And then I started, you know, doing the business development part of that. And after serving for almost, you know, fifteen, sixteen months, I got inducted into PwC India. And then my journey started with PwC, and I’m still with PwC India. It’s almost six and a half years. And, I am now working here as an associate director. But, you know, surprisingly, what has happened when I joined this PwC, PwC India and, I after one and a half years of working, I really understood that, you know, I have done so many things in my MBA, and I will soon to I will soon forget it because if I don’t practice it enough. So that intrigued my interest that how about writing that? You know? So I started. I still remember the date that’s, 31st of, December 2019. I started you know, I wrote my post in LinkedIn. So I started writing, you know, a very small snippet. And all of a sudden, people started liking it and it gives me, you know, a kick. Like, let’s start doing it. And then I made it a mandate and COVID also strike by then by then, by April and all. Then I started writing almost 10 to 12 post in a month spanning across all the sectors. Whether I am expert of the sector or not, I kept on reading. I started taking premium subscriptions for economic times. I read, you know, all things like, if you talk about industry, it is chemicals, cement, engineering, material handling, steel, paper, and pulp. Everything I started reading. Aviation, transportation. And then I thought and I realized that whenever you read any kind of these kind of news is you understood that and you prove closely understand that the news become repetitive in nature after a certain time because you can easily link that the story is linking to others. That again indeed my interest. And I started, you know, thinking about, how about if I link them together? Like, a change in oil prices, how it will impact gold prices? If the change in the power sector, how it will impact the mining or the employment scenario? Then I started writing. I started giving my opinions. Basically, when I started writing, I started writing giving my opinions. Started preparing a short form, any kind of policies, analysis. And since 2000 and I told you, since February till date, I’ve almost returned 400 small snippets, which we could use as one pager snippet. And, due to this, I got a tremendous visibility in the market. People started, you know, reaching out to me directly from the industry asking for just give us an analysis on a adult basis. Like, you know, just do it for us. I used to happily do it, and, I started writings also. And then I think four publications got published in international general in that duration. Even I was awarded with, one of the, prestigious award call, award from the Russia Government, for one of the one of my publications back in 2021. So it all started back then. And then I was invited in number of seminars, webinars, conferences. So it started then. And now I understood, no. That’s that’s something, you know, your power of reading and, you know, putting them in a perspective. And now it becomes very easy for me. I when you read something, you had quickly link that why it is happening, how it is happening, and then you start polluting and structuring. So now it becomes relatively easy, back then five years when I used to frame different different, you know, analyze the tree through thick and thin, and that’s the journey. So now I’m, with PwC India, and, I’m a management consultant. And I’m my area of specialization is mining and metals. And, apart from whatever I write on the, you know, LinkedIn to other for other sectors, I’m an avid reader. So based on that reading, I write. I’m not an expert on the area, but I do have an opinion about those subjects. So that’s it.

Sandeep Pai: Wonderful. What a journey. What a journey from, you know, mining to consulting, project development. And now, honestly, I can call you a public scholar because what you’re doing is public scholarship of kind of education and teaching and all. I have one kind of a follow-up one follow-up question. So when you do these posts and obviously in a country like India and generally, you know, I think your posts are followed by people who are interested in India and not just who are in India. How do you react to people who criticize your post? Or, like, I mean, does that discourage you from this kind of public scholarship? Or, you know, how do you respond to them? I mean, I guess in LinkedIn, it’s a little bit less kind of, like, snarky compared to, other platforms. But yeah.

Abhinav Sengupta: Okay. So, of all, I do understand that when you write these kind of post, it takes a great amount of responsibility on our part to be 100% accurate. There are three, for instances, where it happened that I misquoted something. There was some typo error or perhaps I interpreted it very differently. I backed then and there’s itself. Somebody correct me on my post. I immediately accept it. I even, you know, say, okay. Fine. It’s a mistake. I will rectify it. And then I go back to my post. I rectify it. I don’t publish it again, but I acknowledge it. And I remain so much curious about it or basically vigil about it that next time onwards, I should not do any kind of typo. Now your part which you say is about criticizing. So, I mean, fortunately till date I mean, whenever I post something on this kind of platform, people have started, you know I mean, very few people who have started who have started getting into the discussion mode. Like, you know, why you have given this opinion and this could be an alternative thought. So I write with this kind of, I would say, you know, a point that if any discussions or any different, school of thought comes, then I would, very humble enough to accept it as well as, you know, would like to come into discussions with them offline more and even if they want to an online manner also. So, yes, that’s what has happened with me so far.

Sandeep Pai: Great. And I’m excited and con I’m ex I will remain excited and would love to continue to see you do this because I have personally benefited a lot. Something new comes up, and I know that I will now have a post that will summarize for what I need to know for that topic. This was for some topics, you don’t need that much depth. You just need, like, basics, and then you move on. Wonderful. I mean, I have so many questions for you about the mining sector, so I don’t wanna delay further and dive right in. So you had this large mining sector in India, which was dominated by coal and, you know, other other metals, but now you have a new age of mining if I can call it, which is the advent of critical minerals required for energy transition, defense, etcetera. So maybe today we will focus on that. And we I wanna start from 101, so that, you know, listeners who are new to this topic, who are energy enthusiasts but not specialists, could understand the scale and size of India’s mining sector. How much could it grow given there is need for critical minerals? Like, where is it?

Abhinav Sengupta: Okay. So since you asked very pertinent to critical minerals only, but I want to take, you know, thirty seconds. Mining is the activity after human existence. You know? Even if you go to any other planet, the thing which we’ll do is scout for the minerals apart from, you know, building our, you know, you know, shelter where we’ll stay. But, definitely, we’ll scout for the minerals. So it’s the activity. Whatever mineral you can see on the periodic table, all of them can be mined or some of them can be a lab, a lab core wound or, you know, laboratory wound. So it’s not only about coal and iron. That’s number one. Number two, as you mentioned, that critical minerals. See, these are the terms. Critical the terms, the strategic minerals, these terms are coined are basically coined by the government, are the are are the coined by the policy makers, considering three facts. The the availability of technology, the need for these minerals, as well as the, you know, the knowledge base or the skill which we have. So based on these three things, that technology, skill, and the, you know, the knowledge which which you have are obviously the function of time, you can categorize a particular mineral as a cat as a critical or noncritical. So here in this case, as you can rightly mention, the critical mineral government has come up with the list of 24 critical minerals, defining the act. But these minerals were earlier also there. They were mined in bits and pieces. Some of them were, you know, neglected because until and unless their users were not well structured or defined. Now what has happened with this advent of energy transition? This energy transition is, perhaps, I would say, some multiple times of from the conventional sources. For example, it’s an electric vehicle is six six times more mineral intensive as compared to an IC engine or IC IC driven vehicle. Similarly, a wind power plant of an offshore and onshore wind power plant is close to 10 to 12 times more mineral intensive as compared to a conventional thermal power plant. These are just few examples you can see. So the intensity of usage of these minerals has grown like anything. Because of these things, there’s scarcity in the particular context in India or perhaps in the world. They have been coined the term like critical. They are critical as of now. It may happen that once you found them in evidence, they may be removed from the critical minerals. For example, coking coal. India doesn’t have much of a coking coal. Now government has already taught to bring in coking coal as a critical mineral. It’s a part of critical mineral because it’s a lag. Now coming to your question of the size of the industry. So of all, it’s a primary sector. That’s number one. It’s it has a contribution about two to 2.5% of the GDP is being contributed by the mining sector. Highly employment intensive. As of now, you’re close to have four to 5,000,000 jobs directly, and there are almost one to ten one to 10 ratio of indirect job generation. So it’s a huge employment generator, and it’s not about the mining only. When you do mining, there are some cascading things like across the down the value chain, like, you know, beneficiation, smelting, transportation, and usage. So it includes a lot of employment. And so that’s why it’s it’s highly employment generation. It’s the activity. It’s a primary sector apart from agriculture and the fisheries. So that is the overall scale. And with the advent of this critical minerals, the thing has come that earlier we used to throw some of the, you know, waste from mining activity. Some material as a waste as a mining activity. Now they are being reconsidered as a potential source of opportunity for retrying these critical minerals because energy transition is very much prevalent and, you know, we understand the COP commitments of 2017. By 2017, we want to become a net zero com net zero country. So in order to do that, the mining sector will grow leaps and bounds. That’s true primarily. Lastly, there’s a secondary route also that recycling of minerals is also taking place. You cannot, I mean, you cannot term that as a mining, but, yes, there’s there’s there’s, again, the recovery of these minerals from the recycling plant. So in overall gamut, you can see India is presently at the right position for see that mining sector will evolve anything at least for next fifty years, if not less than that. Because huge amount of the comment is there. So, yes, it will grow at a rate of almost. I would believe that, you know, I mean, its contribution is going to increase by 5% to 6% in GDP in next ten years, if not less than that. So that’s that’s a good potential it has.

Sandeep Pai: Right. So all those students out there who are interested to explore future careers, mining is one area that is going to shine for a while. So now let’s get into the crux of today’s discussion, which is really focused on critical minerals. Explain to us, like, how can a country like India counter China and then the growing influence of the West in this race for the entire value chain of critical minerals. So from mining to processing all the way to the end use, I mean, already we know these statistics that China is dominating, you know, more than 80%, depending on how you slice the data of mining processing has been done by China. And now the West is kind of trying to go and corner that market and get their own slice. So what happens to countries like India? Will they continue to be reliant on China for at least the processing and the other side? Or how do we go from there? What’s your vision? What’s the story?

Abhinav Sengupta: Okay. So as I already told, that mining is a site specific activity. China has been scouting for these critical minerals. We’ll use the term critical only. It’s critical minerals according to their concept because every country has defined their own critical minerals. So China has been doing this since long back since 1980s. Before that, they have started, you know, scouting for this rare earth critical minerals. You know, you can name anything like lithium cobalt, whatever. So they have started, you know, scouting. So they have by then, they have explored this. Like, a good amount of explosion has been done. thing, China has already been bestowed with I mean, definitely, so it’s it’s a god grace that they have all kind of minerals beneath their surface. So they have now they have started reaping the benefits. Thirdly, which China has done very well is that soon they realized that it’s not only the mining. We cannot use a rock parity for annuals. So they started, you know, developing their processing plants or the beneficial as well as the processing part of it. So they have done that early and they always got an early mover advantage. So now if you divide this, you will find that mining of this critical mineral is happening somewhere else, but processing is very much concentrated in one or two region. So you can see the supply chain becomes very stack I mean, it’s very scattered. Like, we are doing mining at one place. We are supplying all the minerals or all the materials to one country, which has all the infrastructure readily available, including cheap labor. So they are doing that. So they have already got the competitive advantage. Now when country like India, when this started getting this kick off, getting into these define this critical minerals in the year 2022, I still remember 2022 or 23, they started defining that these are the amendments, these are the laws. So we have started late. But the best part about it that we have a huge appetite. There’s a huge market for, you know, consumption. That’s number one. Number two things in India number thing in India that exploration needs to be, you know, start in a very big way. When you say exploration, scout for the minerals. And scouting for mineral is something that you cannot, you know, that you cannot I mean, you cannot evade. You have to do it right away right right now. So and then they have started doing the scouting of minerals. And this scouting of minerals needs to be done with the help of a technology. So AI demon mineral expression is something which India has started, and they started doing it. So that’s number number three. Number four, parallelly, what can be done for the short term? Like, when I say short term, let’s say 2030, 2032, we can do some kind of strategic trials with the, you know, big countries like China or perhaps Indonesia, you know, where you have the or basically, Democratic Republic Of Congo or Australia where we can do our Argentina bill, basically. Some kind of strategic tie ups where we can source these minerals for the short time. And by that time we are, you know, mitigating these other remedies, we are mitigating our short term, you know, needs. We are very well poised to scout those minerals, which we are doing it. And once we establish any kind of reserves or resource, we can immediately start getting into mining, mining of them, and parallelly, we can start developing the processing part of it. So this is what, as of now, India is doing and planning that by 2031-32, you will see a lot of strategic types will happen. And they will they are the the PSEs in India will started acquiring a lot of mineral reserves assets outside India also, like in Australia, in Argentina, Bolivia. People are I mean, the country, the PSUs are and the and the other, private organizations, they are going and they are, you know, acquiring these kind of assets. And because of that and because of that, what is happening? A lot of lot of increase stake they are gaining in these kind of countries, but mining has not started yet. So once they will get that increase stake, done the mining will start. So this is the short term. Parallely, what they are also doing, lastly, that recycling has given a very big impetus. So you can see there are companies like, Batex, and I would say, you know, Log nine. They have all started doing this recycling of minerals of all these critical minerals from that, you know, from the non conventional sources. So they are doing it parallely. So it’s a two so it’s a two pronged approach.  At one point of time, we are doing the exploration to secure our assets. Alongside some auctions have been also started. I’m not gonna talk about the auctions. Parallelly, we are acquiring assets abroad so that we can, you know, we can make ourselves very much, in a right position to acquire. I mean, to do the mining and to mitigate our raw material security once these assets get mature. And thirdly, we are doing the recycling. So we have started including some, some r and d as well as, you know, some new patents are coming up in terms of recycling of this middle from end of life, electronic events or let’s say batteries or whatever. So this is how India can do it. Now when you compare to West, West has, so this is how we are mitigating it from China. But when you talk about the West part, the Western part, they are also at the almost at the same length because, the appetite for consumption for the countries in the West is also very high. So we and them, I mean, India as well as the Western part, we are almost at the same trajectory. It’s only the China who is basically, you know, leading the pack. So not much difference will come. But, yes, one thing will come that the sourcing of energy because energy, this critical minerals extraction mining, they’re highly capital intensive, highly energy intensive, and highly water intensive. So this is something, you know, we need to take care of that how we can perform better than other and we’ll definitely surpass.

Sandeep Pai: Thank you. This is very helpful for you to paint the landscape. I have some specific questions and, you know, maybe we can brainstorm together also here. I understand that Indian PSUs and Indian companies are trying to scout for assets overseas. But somebody who’s looked at the sector so closely, do you think that is really feasible? And and let me let me allow me to explain this in a little bit or my apprehension in a little bit more detail. The kind of regulatory approvals that are required for an Indian PSU to go and scout and then, you know, like, make those deals come back to their respective ministries, which goes to DEA, which goes to you know, it’s such a long process to sign. Other countries who may not be as democratic can get can just go and, like, you know, acquire those assets. So do you think India’s Indian companies, unless they reform how they do business overseas, will always have to, you know, make do with lesser assets, you know, which because it’s such a long and drawn journey to actually get something. And then on top of all of that, you have to hope that that mining operation comes through because as you know, you know, there are problems in the future, and it takes years and years. So while I love all these announcements, I’m like,  I would love to hear your thoughts whether some like, what to what extent things will come out of it because that’s what really matters in the end.

Abhinav Sengupta: Okay. It’s a very right question which you have asked, so I’ll answer it in this manner. of all, you have to understand the nature of business. Mining is, again, it’s a capital intensive, and it has a high gestation period. So any mining activity or any from exploration to the operationalization of any mine or any mineral asset will at least take seven to eight years on a fast track basis, to be very honest. That’s number one. Now we do understand that these middles will require in the future. So it’s a business as usual for them that, you know, that anyhow, I’m we are not manufacturing anything. It is something beneath that. We have to take it out. So it has its own gestation period. You have to you have to abide by it, or at least you have to follow it. If you cannot even you cannot evade it, there’s something is going to be there. That’s number two. Number three in this case, that since by this time, you know, by 2030, we are at a such a beautiful cusp that’s that we have tried to change our entire energy mix. We’re going to have a lot of gas influx, like 15% of gas in the energy mix. Coal consumption will come down. Renewables, you know, share will go up. Where these things will be filled up. This has to be filled up through these critical vendors, which we presently we are importing. So it is ultimately, it is impacting my, you know, you know, trade deficit as well as my current account deficit also, if you can see that. So we will become tend to become the, you know, I would say the net import country, which we still are. But considering this, I mean, at some juncture, at some point of time, you have to think through. Like, you know, what not? If I mean, because what I will talk now, if India thinks that, you know, they will scout for this, they they will start getting into this area. The fruits of this decision will start coming out after ten years or at least after, you know, seven to eight years, they will start to repeat. So I would believe that whatever step the government has taken as of now, as you rightly mentioned, that acquiring mental assets overseas or, you know, going for, you know, scouting for different assets. And definitely, they have their own cycle of coming into the life, these blocks or these, you know, metal assets. This is the right time to get into it for a medium to long term. That is if I see the horizon of 2040, and if I want to paint a projection, I would be, you know, confident enough to say that we have some assets outside which has started into the production. We have so, we have certain types with the countries or we have developed certain amount of technologies which will help us. So that is the I mean, so that is a parallel of, you know, delay in energy transition. Let’s say our energy transition picture becomes delayed. Like, you know, we’re not going to see this 1.5 degree Celsius rise, and we shift it by 2035 or 40. And if this delay has happened, then we can say, okay. We are relatively comfortable. These investments are, you know, these are, you know, feudal investment. So we are considered, you know, considering that as of now, the business as usual, everything will go in place. We are going to achieve by 2070. There’ll be huge demand by 2035 by that time. So it’s right time for India to scout for these minerals. Now since you rightly asked that, you know, success, which we I completely understand that India’s entire regime of this is highly regulatory. You know? It has a lot of lot of bottlenecks, lot of its it’s highly policy palaces is something which is there. But you have to understand also that these are non replenishable assets. Once gone, it takes billions of years to form. So some checks and balances that we need to take because, ultimately, these assets will be for the for the country, by the country, and for the people. So I think taking that product you these checks and balances, I believe personally, they needs to be done. It needs to be there because you have to take the entire ecosystem along with you. But, yes, we what we can improve is definitely, you know, the speediness, you know, for that right judgment should happen right time. It should not be unlawful. It should not be, you know, at the cost of someone’s else life or basically, you know, livelihood. But, yes, it should be done properly, but, with some fast track. And for the fast track manner, we can idle we can definitely depend on technology or use of some kind of IT an IT intervention where things become transparent as well as fair. So I would I’m hoping in that, you know, yes, this fruit will come in 2035. We’ll get to see that what exactly exactly can happen. One big big risk which I can see. Let’s say, if some risk of substitute might have come, like, you know, all of a sudden you can see these critical minerals become unviable, then it’s it will go for a pause. But these are, again, some kind of risk you apprehend you know, you inherently take when you make these kind of policies and all. Let’s say I’m giving a very simple example. Like like lithium. As of now, lithium is, you know, so much being sought after. Lithium, graphite, and all. What if sodium ion batteries come into picture by 2013 a big way? And sodium is relatively, you know, readily available in any context, in any geography. If that comes or let’s say hydrogen comes in at that big manner that you need not go for an EV. So what are the investment policy we thought for those investment will go for a toss? So these kind of scenario may come up and definitely when IEA publishes any kind of report or, you know, World Bank do these kind of studies, they take this into accounts. And and I’ve and I’ve read those.I understood that these are the risk that people take, and you cannot evade it. You just need to go by it.

Sandeep Pai: Right. Right. Thank you. I like your optimism. I was just pushing you to get a response in terms of, like, how do you how do you think about this. Okay. Let’s move a little bit beyond mining. So, obviously the more up you go, the value chain, the more, you know, jobs or, you know, more value you create for yourself as a country. And it also it’s ultimately mining is, like you said, is a primary sector. So you ultimately want to produce something from those mines and from those minerals. So let’s talk about India’s strategy beyond mining. Like, is there a processing strategy? Is there a strategy that is the mining ministry working with other ministries to create, like, this whole idea of value chain? Or is it all happening in isolation that, yes, we have a big focus on mining or is it coming? It’s not come yet, but is it coming? So if you can basically, if you can comment on, like, the process the, beyond mining side of value chain and where India is at.

Abhinav Sengupta: Okay. So to answer this, like, when you talk about any kind of mining, what we are mining? Any mineral, if you can see, they just look at the I mean, when you see them, they are just like rocks. These rocks cannot be put to use for any kind of end user. They need to refine, process. Ultimately, then they’re you know, if you see any valuation, then it will put to use. So after mining the exact the actual journey which started. And, you know, having owning a mine having a mine is basically more of a, you know, geographical distribution whether you have those assets or not. Considering intent context, India has been totally focusing earlier on, you know, mining, mining, and mining, not even the exploration part of it. Now with sudden, you know, with investments and what what about this critical minerals has started gaining ground and energy transition has come. All of a sudden, you can see that the importance of mineral processing, which is a very immediate step after mining. It starts with exploration, mining, mineral processing, smelting, transportation, and usage. That’s that’s that’s the entire venture or perhaps the marketing after the end usage. So the mineral processing has taken a very important leap of rule. I mean, very important. That’s why government of India has started, you know, initiating this new kind of, policy like national critical mineral mission. It just just started in the month of comment and all that later, that, announcement in the month of January 2025, where they have given special impetus for this mineral processing and the mineral beneficiation. Again, these are stationary plants. These are the plants which run on energy. They will they need an put amount of supply of input raw material that they want to process, and then they also need a market where they can sell. So they understand that the market is there, and market is there. Okay. But this only thing, the input that is, you know, from where we’ll get the raw material presently. But as of now, you know, these plants, whenever we think of, like, some kind of, you know, plant will set up on it will come in a certain area. It depends on different kind of technology. You will have to understand and appreciate that these minerals are beneath the earth. I can give you a simple example. A mineral found in Rajasthan. Let’s say a simple example. A simple same mineral found in Rajasthan may have a different completion or may have different gang materials that are waste material associated with different, same minerals found in, let’s say, Tamil Nadu. So the technology of extracting thing from the ore will change. So thing which India is doing is doing the sampling. Good amount of sampling has been done. So the Indian Bureau of Mines as of now is doing this kind of sampling. They have started, you know, taking more samples from across the pan across the country. And they’re starting under and and they’re trying to understand that, you know, which technology will be, you know, adaptable or suitable for extracting this mineral. Because once a plant will come up, let’s say a mineral processing plant will come up, it will take, you know, it will be run only on the particular technology. And the switching cost from one technology to another technology is very high. It’s a time consuming also. It’s a high also. So and also you need to make sure that your supply of input for those plants should be evident or should be good enough. Should actually run for next twenty five years, thirty years. Otherwise, my investment will go for a pause. So taking all this queue, the step which their government has started doing is sampling. They have started, you know, doing a lot of r and d. Like, which area has one thing? That’s number one. thing, they’re also, you know, trying to, give some kind of, you know, viability gap funding in terms of finding that who will invest in which area. That’s why some kind of equity partnership between private government, starting for minerals, setting up the mineral processing plant. Even the critical mineral mission which government has announced, they have already, factored. Like, there will be an inventory, you know, a mineral inventory they want to set up. That’s something which is, going to see the light of day in next three, four years. So all these measures government is doing apart from and apart from this, government also need to make sure that there has to be an electricity, which is at a cheaper rate because they’re highly energy intensive. Number two, lot of water is required. And a country like India where we have water scarcity, these processing plants, they require huge amount of water. So that water, we also because it’s a infrastructure that interwipe apart from that market and all. So, yes, considering this entire thing, r and d is being done in the mining sector allotment thing, like extracting rare earth element from fly ash, you know, finding critical minerals from the anode mud, finding critical minerals from the red mud. All those kind of technologies are common as India has now started doing. Lastly, what they are doing also, which when I was there in, one of the, Ministry of Minds meeting, I learned that, they’re investing heavily in academics also. There has to be there’s a lot of skill gap is going on because this skill needs to be filled in. So, apparently, they are in doing, you know, you know, I think they are creating courses which are very tailor made for extraction extraction of critical vendors from these kind of, you know, scarce community. That’s what they’re doing. So it’s a composite approach I would believe that they are taken care of.

Sandeep Pai: Okay. Great. I I wanted to take you to the direction of r and d if, if because that’s an area that, you know especially, I was looking at data from China, and they’ve been doing r and d around these topics for a very, very long time. So tell us about, like, where what’s happening in the world of r and d. India is known to underspend on r and d in any sector. It’s not particularly linked to mining alone. So are we, like, for example, you talked about fly ash to critical minerals. I mean, this is something in The United States. They started in the 90s. Right? And now I visited four or five pilot projects. Battery companies are now coming and buying those pilot projects. So, is India doing is it the has the r and d really happening, or is it just, you know, for the show of things and just a little bit here and there? Paint us a picture of where is the R and D landscape that, that, around critical minerals. I mean, I know it’s a beyond mining topic, but, would love to hear your thoughts on the R and D of minerals.

Abhinav Sengupta: So I’ll answer this in a two manner. Number one, if you see formal, formally announcement when government of India has announced critical minerals where they have given out clear for around $4,000,000,000 for next seven years, like, around 34,300, rupees crore, rupees crore, they have announced. In this case, a component for r and d where they like you to spend around 100 cr in next seven years. Only focus on r and d. Now modalities of this r and d, where they will spend, how they will spend, which mineral they will focus into or geography specific, it is yet too clear because we are yet to receive the paper. That’s number one for the overall overall r and d type. Apart from this, the organizations like Indian Bureau of Mines, IIMP, Bhubaneswar, National Mineral, Liberty, Jamsetu, These institutions, they are doing this r and d on a, you know, pilot basis. And, you know, you know, as and when the sample comes and arrive on their own. And when they come up with any kind of new discovery, they come and, you know, they publish some kind of paper. So this is the formal thing which is going on. Informally, there are many companies who are the mining players. When because, again, I’m telling you, mineral essence are, you know, nondepressible. Once you extract it, you cannot it it is gone. You know? You you cannot take it back. So private players, what they do when they find the when they do the mining, they also try to analyze that any other mineral, they they can report it or not. And if they report, then as per the statutory norms, they have to report it. They have to stack it. They have to pay some additional premium in order to sell it. And there are some list of, other, you know, other obligations also. So informally, what they do, they on their need to know basis, site specific, they do some kind of own r and d. Many companies are there. You know? They are they are doing I know. And these are very site specific r and d. Perhaps very low scale. Perhaps one month of study they will do on their own. They will prepare their internal paper, and they will try to establish that by this technology or perhaps this method of mining or selective mining or some some measure or the other. They can, you know, extract this mineral or then they can report to government, and they can pay the royalty, and then they can sell it ultimately. So they are doing it. So these kind of R and D spending are happening, but they’re informal, no structure because need to know basis. If I have a mind, I found sometime, like, you know I’m giving an example in the in the in the area of Gujarat in the area of Gujarat, in the in the in the western part, the Kutch area, you find in the waste rock a lot of in the lignite mice, in the waste rock, you find a lot of, you know, limestone limestone deposits and which has a relatively high CAO content, like calcium oxide content. That is that means that they can be you put to use for cement cement making. But it’s a lignite mines. And in the waste time getting this limestone. So all of a sudden, they thought, how about, you know, putting this, you know, or or doing the right sampling and some kind of processing plant or unit so that I can extract the correct percentage of limestone from that waste waste material. How they can do it? So they have done it and, you know, know, then they report to government that, look, I’m it’s a primary lignite mines, but I’m trying to extract, limestone because they have relatively better CAO content. Similarly, in some cases, a lot of these critical minerals, they were considered as a waste, like aluminous nitrate, you know, nit nitrite. Aluminous nitrite contains a small amount of lithium into it. It’s so aluminous nitrate was a waste. But when you understood that it contains the lithium, all of a sudden it becomes economical. And then people started, you know, scouting for different kind of technology. How can I take it? So again, I told you in the beginning, it’s a function of technology, time and need and the knowledge. So it becomes important for them. So that’s how, you know, that’s how R and D is doing. And coming to your question, overall, the spend of R and D in India is very, very, very less. Very few people, you know, tend to because these kind of, things are not being, you know, promulgated much. But now the need of an hour is the creativity with the help of AI and all everything. Your day to day job has been taken care of. Now the creative thinking, r and d will be given more impetus in coming days. So that I will see that going forward, you will see that more amount of, RND will be there. I’m very optimistic on this.

Sandeep Pai:  Right. One quick question on integrated approach. So while I understand that government of India through Ministry of Mines has been very active in the critical minerals stays, you know, the missions, the the different engagements, you know, the mineral the the state owned companies under Ministry of Mines, Ministry of Coal, trying to go and look for assets. But what about defense? What about other ministries who are also potential consumers of this critical minerals? Have you seen inter ministerial coordination? Have you seen, you know, any kind of sort of larger strategy that goes beyond these, mineral mines and coal type?

Abhinav Sengupta: Okay. of all, you required minerals for each and everything that you see around yourself. So definitely, defense is, again, dependent on all these critical minerals as well as including rare earth. But as per this new policy, it has mandated, like, PSUs, any PSUs. Let’s say if I’m a if I’m a solar producer, I’m producing solar panels. I can go for a backward integration and start you know, started acquiring raw materials so that I can I can control my quality and also my supply for longer? So with this concept, you can see now oil oil oil sector companies. Oil sector companies who are good in offshore because they’re doing offshore drilling. They are now going into mining. They started getting into mining, offshore mining, which government of India has already announced. They’re going for acquiring assets overseas to sell looking for assets. You know, apart from the standard companies like Cabil and RMDC, they which has been given a mandate. You know, scouting for these middle. Other companies, any PSU, oil PSUs, your renewable energy PSUs, they are now started going backwards. Now, specifically, if you see about defense and, the any other party, let’s say, semiconductor industry. Right? Just talk let’s talk about semiconductors. The semiconductor industry requires a lot of critical minerals. It’s quartz. We require quartz. We require silicon for that. Whether they are going for this backward integration that we need to see. Still, they the supply chain doesn’t get disrupted. They don’t see that, you know, at least for the next ten years, if they are very confident that my supply is secured, they must have done some kind of analysis. If they see that there’s a damage to that, then they will definitely get into this backward integration, and they’ll start acquiring this. Till then, I’m not sure whether they will do it or not. So and considering your question for the Indian sector, like, you know, internal industry coordination. So definitely there are few schemes like Gadi Shakti. Gadi Shakti has happened for starting doing the ease of project execution, like, you know, all lengths of different different kind of project execution that is happening. Even ministry of, power, and they have announced their energy storage policy, pumped hydro storage policy, and they have mandated that look for those areas abandoned close and discontinued mines where you can set up this energy storage. So these are the few things that they how they’re coordinating. Requiring I mean, regarding acquiring of asset, it’s a very individual choice. And, I mean, definitely, it should be aligned with the vision and vision of the particular organization. Let’s say if I’m I’m only a defense company, I’m my job is only to prepare this until now this is a very, you know, a desire for going for backward integration. Nobody will get into this because mining is a capital intensive, time consuming, and you need a lot of expertise. So I think it’s a it’s a very difficult to comment on that whether they will go for it or not. But, again, you never know if some need comes. They will they will they might get into this.

Sandeep Pai: Right. No. This has been a fantastic conversation. I wanna end with one question, which is, what is up and nerves vision of what India should do in the medium, short and medium term or even long term, to become a leader in this space.Right. You know, you’re somebody who looks at the policy landscape, the the mining sector very closely. So what what should India do going from here?

Abhinav Sengupta: Okay. So since it’s, I’m I’m I’m starting this with a disclaimer. That’s my personal personal views on this. of all, skill developments. Skill development and technology as well as knowledge of, you know, how these critical minerals are, the method of mining, the method of, you know, processing it, and the end usage. That’s number one. The government needs to quickly start, you know, doing, focus on it. Because if they start building it now, then these assets will or this human being or human capital will come after four, five years. So that started investing in it. That’s number one. Number two, quickly started, and, you know, going with a very high note on the exploration. Exploration of all the mineral assets, like, you know, offshore as well as onshore for critical minerals. Any unconventional, nonconventional method of, you know, finding these minerals, as I mentioned, like fly ash, recovery of RE and all, government should start focusing on doing r and d in this. Because once they establish certain kind of proven technology, investors will come and they will infuse their money. So that’s number two they should do. And thirdly, we should understand that it’s a long journey. You know? Mental requirement is never going to be, you know, it we always be we’ll be always like an import dependent because we have a huge population to cater to and that you cannot control on that level. So we will always be have to find some kind of different alternatives to it. Like, say, if hydrogen is coming up, then we have to look into the hydrogen area. For the mining part for the mining of, these conventional minerals, like, I don’t know, lead, zinc, bauxite, which you already have, I mean, 10, we should gain the supremacy so that we should have them buying power. Like, you know, if we can do the proper trade off, if we’re doing the technology trade off or the mineral trade off, we should have, you know, though we are the leaders in these kind of minerals. But we still we need to, you know, focus more on it. Lastly, I would believe that recycling recycling will take a very important role. Proper communication from the government should happen to the common people because mining is considered as a very hard to abate sector, and people don’t like mining much. You know? As a student also, when I join I mean, to be very honest, people don’t take mining by choice. Very few people are there who take mining by choices. So this concept that this conversation needs to be removed. Otherwise, you know you know, good talent or people will not come into the sector. If this four to five things if if we do properly, then in next, you know, in next fifteen fifteen years, we’ll be we’ll be definitely the leader because we have a huge, you know, area base where a lot of mental can be found, which is yet to get explode.

Sandeep Pai: Thank you so much, Abhinav. This has been such a great conversation. Thank you for explaining the international story. The national story and then the path forward.

Abhinav Sengupta: Thank you so much, Sandeep. Great to talk to you, and I’m looking forward to this.

Sandeep Pai: Thank you. Wonderful.

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