Global South’s G20 Streak: A Turning Point for Climate and Energy Leadership? | ft.  Dr. Prabhat Upadhyaya

[Podcast intro]

Welcome to the season five of the India Energy Hour podcast. This podcast explores the most pressing hurdles and promising opportunities of India energy transition through an in depth discussion on policies, financial markets, social movements and science. Your hosts for this episode are Shreya Jai, Delhi based energy and climate journalist and Dr. Sandeep Pai, Washington based energy transition researcher and author. The show is produced by 101 reporters, a pan India network of grassroots reporters that produces original stories from rural India. If you like our podcast, please rate us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts or the platform where you listen to our podcast. Your support will help us reach a larger audience.

The consecutive G20 presidencies of Indonesia (2022), India (2023), Brazil (2024), and South Africa (2025) has resulted in four consecutive G20 presidencies held by emerging economies. This moment is hailed by many as a grand opportunity for Global South countries to make a push on different topics including on energy transition, and climate action. Collectively, in the climate and energy space, these countries have shown leadership on topics like Just Energy Transition Partnership (JETP), Green Development, Climate Finance & LiFE, Energy Transition and Sustainable Development among others. Can they do more? How much more and what are limits of G2O process? 

To understand how G20s works, and how best can it be used for advocating for stronger energy and climate policies by Global South countries, we interviewed Dr. Prabhat Upadhyaya, G20 and Multilateral Advisor, African Climate Foundation.  Prabhat is a leading climate and energy expert who has previously worked with G2O secretariat in India and is currently in South Africa leading work on G20 in South Africa.

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[Podcast interview]

Sandeep Pai: Welcome to the India Energy R Prabhat. we are delighted to have you with us. This is a very special episode. We have turned five, this is our season five and this is our first episode for the season and we thought that let’s start with something different yet very much linked to what the Indian energy are covers. we have talked before you said that you are an avid listener. So happy to have a listener here and also happy to have someone that whose work we read and we learn so much from. So thank you again for joining us here. looking forward to speaking with you in detail all what is there about G20, climate action, etc.

 Dr. Prabhat Upadhyaya: Thank you very much Che, thank you for having me on the show. yeah and excited about this conversation and thank you for giving the whole community a platform to share their stories and also where we are in these spaces. Looking forward to the conversation.

Shreya Jai: Okay, so great Prabhat, let’s just get Started, as our tradition is that we actually start with the person because we have so many students who hear this podcast and climate energy is such a kind of wicked field where there’s no one pathway that, okay, you do study this and then you study that and then you, you know, join climate energy kind of domain. People come from all kinds of backgrounds, from all kinds of interests, worldview. So would love to hear, like, your story from where are you from? Like, what did you study? How did you get introduced to the space? What are your ambitions?

 Dr. Prabhat Upadhyaya: Sure, thanks. Thanks, Andeep. I was making a joke with Sandeep, but that will remain off the record. about this section of the podcast. but you, I grew up in a small town in North India, Kalka. A lot of you listeners might have heard of Kalkka Shimla Train. So I grew up in Kalkka and, did my schooling, from a school in that vicinity. Did my, Bachelor’s from, DAV College in Sector 10, Chandigar. and know, the first question, I mean, bachelor was in science with computer science because ironically, I didn’t want to study organic chemistry, which has everything to do with carbon. and now my life revolves around carbon. So to me it’s almost like, you know, carbon is paying me back that, you know, you picked up a enemy. So, yeah, so in my bachelor’s, I swapp chemistry for computer science. and then, you know, there was. I never wanted to do engineering, and that’s why I went into bsc. I heard one of your. One of your. My colleague Shivani was on the podcast and, you know, she, she also had the same feelings about engineering. So I’m glad that I’m not alone in that. and then, you know, once towards the end of my bachelor’s, you know, there’s always this thing that you not have to go through the competitive exam. There was this thing, suggestion that, okay, look, you’ve done your bachelor with computer science, why don’t you go to mca? And that is where I was headed to towards the end of the second year of bachelor. but then, you know, it took a lot of time to think, reflect, and I felt that, you know, I just don’t want to just be sitting just behind the machine and just doing coding, etc. And all that stuff. So. And, you know, so set for the CAT exam, in 2000. I think this is 2003. I think 2003, yeah. If I’m current and I remember that I messed up my m. Mathematics section in that CAT exam and I was cursing myself. But as soon as I got out I heard the news that the paper had leaked and then the whole CAT exam was canceled in that particular year. And I clearly remember that vision standing in the bus, coming back from college. I was thinking that you know that means that a lot of students and lot of children will just let go of this exam and there will be less competition. So I thought I have to double down on this particular thing and take it very seriously because a lot was riding on that. And I, you know, thankfully I kept on it and scored very 90 plus percentile in my cat exam. Not good enough to get a call from I IMs but managed to get into the Indian Institute of Forestry Management which I think has been m. One of the most consequential decisions that turned out in my favor. I was pretty young at that time, almost I think 20 years old. So it had no. And going in a small town my grasp on English was not that strong. So I didn’t fare well in group discussions. And I’m mentioning this because you mentioned that you know there’s a lot of college going students in the audience. but I had done fairly well in the competitive exam and then in the interviews. So you know, so once, once I got into ifm that was truly like, like a new world to me. You know, meeting people from different parts of the country, learning to know about the sustainability field as a whole. Management also as a whole know just a simple exercise that after all of that, when I used to go back from Bhopal on holidays to my hometown, looking at the eucalypst tree was a totally different experience because you could see why euclyptuses are here. They don’t originate in India, they’re coming from Australia. But it’s a production forestry and all that. That history would just play out in front of my eyes. So I think you know it gaves me a new set of eyes almost to look at my same surrounding, fascinating insight into how trees and all that forests and all that stuff. And then as we were we had do organizational training and I remember for the second organizational training so I was very good at marketing management. And then I had to do a toss up that you know, should I go for marketing management or climate, should I be selling toothpaste and toothbrushes and all that stuff? You know, should, should I go into something more serious? And then you know, and I was very good at marketing. But then I decided I’ll get into the policy space. And I did the internship with A three for two months. And that was very helpful. Unfortunately for me, this was quite early in this space and so there were not many recruiters coming in to recruit us. and so I was left. I remember one, I. And one more of my colleagues after the end of the placement week. In the batch of fortyad students, we two were the only one without any job. So we were giving our midterm exam without an offer in our hand and we were just wondering, what have we done with our life so far? but thanks. We did get placed. and the place that I went to, I wouldn’t mention, but I was definitely not happy in that place. and I somehow got hold of a book, by Jim Collins. It’s a management book called Good to Great. And while reading that book gives a very interesting analogy. It says that, you know, in your career you need to see if you are on the correct bus which is taking toward you towards your destination and whether once you have sorted that out, you need to see whether you’re on the right seat, the kind of seat you want to be, whether you’re on the driver or passenger or conductor on who. And that book made me realize I was on the wrong bus. and you know, within three months I changed my job, joined Eco Securities. This was in the carbon credits business, CDM consulting for one year, moved from the place where I was to Jaipur for a year, made friends, learned about this whole new field. but then within a year move to Terry, the Energy Resource site. And that was, I think, a big exposure for me. From that point on I managed. I got exposed to the policy realm in practical terms. I had a huge opportunity to work with Ambassador Chand Shekhadas Guupa, who, you know, who was a giant in our field. Unfortunately, he passed away two years back. And Dr. Pradeipa BH, who were around 2008 to 2009, they were leading the Indian delegation, for the climate negotiations. This is on cop 15 Copenhagen. So got exposure to that whole set and that kind of trained me from a negotiations perspective. after Terry, I was. I went on my home board fellowship to Germany for a year, which gave me insight into how developed countries look into this issue. Came back work for a year and a half with, for policy research with Professor Nav Ro Duash. And I think that just strengthened my Research skills significantly had an opportunity to write one or two papers with him which one of them was termed as the top 20 influential articles by climate policy for its first 20 years. So that was it. Big moment of you know, recognition that we can, that I belong here, you know, don’t have to worry about this thing anymore. And then 2013 I again moved to Sweden for my PhD which incidentally was on climate policy processes and International National Dynamics in India, Brazil, South Africa. post that moved to South Africa for four and a half years after my PhD with WWF. so you know, so from think tank, I mean the consulting to think tank to academia to ngo and then you know, there was this I was looking for a change in 2022 and there’s this position of senior policy specialists at India Z20 secretary was advertised. I applied for it with half a minute left to push the submit button and got shortlisted for Interview etceca and made it through to the Secretariat. And you know, then it was again, you know a whole new world opened up in front of my eyes that how things, how we, what we read, what we try to influence and how actually things happen on the ground. so yeah, so that happened and then once that ended I of course needed some time to you know, breathe a bit. And then I reached out to you know, the African Climate foundation because so my wife is South African. So that’s the reason why I keep coming back to South Africa, try to find a way to you know, navigate these two spaces and had a discussion on the G20 coming in. So this was discussion which I had at the beginning of last year. And so by April I started working on this thing. And now nine months, ten months down the line we are in a position where you know, we are, sort of the go to organization in terms of organization which not only knows about South Africa and Africa as a whole but also understands that how G20 will play out. So you know some of the stories that you know, taking the path less traveled does definitely give you an edge. Yeah. So, so start. Think that’s professional.

Shreya Jai: That’s a very, yeah that’s a very comprehensive journey I would say from a small town and in Himachal all the way to now, South Africa working on G tw It’s’s a long and very fantastic and fascinating journey. There’s a lot of things that are qu. quite intriguing. But one thing that I’m curious Is like there’s so many transitions that you made, right? Your own transition, like the energy transition from a marketing person to a climate person to a policy. Then within policy, certain now G20. Like do you find these transitions, I mean everybody, you probably find it challenging, but what excites you about them or you know, these different transitions that you make. would you want to be that one person who does like one thing very well for 30 years or like 30 things? Not 30, but you know, 10, 15 things over 30 years. So yeah, just curious, like it just speaks to the larger professional trajectory of people.

 Dr. Prabhat Upadhyaya: Yeah, I think you can compare it to say, you know, there are different actors in say movie industries which repeat the same kind of roles, right. They’re known for those kind of roles and they make a lot of money with that. But then there are those who like to experiment, who like to push the envelope and who like to explore that, you know, what are the limits to which you can go, can you do this thing? Can you do that thing? And I think I find myself probably the letter and that’s probably why I used to like the actors who used to not get typecast in a certain kind of one role. But I think that the common thread in my career has been the climate space, right? That you know, I kept one foot very stable that I want to work on climate. I may have worn different hats but they all are climate linked, you know, so that you do need a certain degree of stability even if you’re transitioning so that you don’t fall flat on, on your face. And I think that finding that balance, that you know, having a stable anchor, that this is what I want to be known. So for example, while I was at WWF, I was leading the regional pol policyo CA on plastics, in the run up to UNAP process on the plastic negotiations. And I enjoyed that process. But then, you know, after a point I was like no, I want to get back to climate energy space. So that, but that experience helped me in understanding, you know, the multilateral process, but also the African. So what the transitions and being in different places, what it makes sure is that you are not in your comfort zone and any growth happens outside of your comfort zone. So it might not be, you know, expertise in one specific area, but you know, the coverage, the width of topics and then the capacity when develops to find interlininkages, find the linkages, you know, that that enhances. And I think as, as, as we are staring at the advent of Artificial intelligence or you. We are getting into these things. These are the things, the possibility, the imagination that you bring in to see the connections within varied field that will hold people in strong ste than just pure expertise on one thing. Unless you are a doctor or specializing something and saving lives literally think

Sandeep Pai: I really like the comparison you made of yourself with a movie star. good to have a method actor here with us. But it looks like currently G20 is the script that you’re working on for some years. And before we get into the nuances of it let’ let just very quickly get into what is G20? How does it work? Why it is important? There are so many multilateral platforms across There is ASEAN, there is G7, then this G20 kind of has attracted more attention maybe because we are sitting in this part of the world probably. So if you can juxtaposition it and also tell us what kind of importance does it hold in the global dialogue over a variety of issues.

 Dr. Prabhat Upadhyaya: Sure. So I think you know from an international politics international relations there is you know you have bilateral negot relations you have trilateral like three parties, two parties, you have multilateral where you know the whole UN system is multilateral like more multiple number of countries involved. And then there’s something called minilateral like you know you have more than two or three organizations but it’s still manageable number. So G20 would possibly fall in something of that sort where you have 2021 order organizations which come together to discuss things. Now the major difference between say G20, BRS, ASEAN, G7 is with ASEAN there is a common threatead Asia like Southeast Asia with G7 developed countries, BRICS, emerging economies. G20 in current time becomes important because it’s one of those few, I think probably one of the of its kind platform which brings two different set of organizations together face to face. Developed countries and developing countries so that they are not discussing things in eco chambers. So it creates a platform to break those eco chambers and they have to come together to reach, to discuss, debate, argue and eventually reach consensus on things howsoever weak on matters on issues of global governance, you know. So in that sense it becomes very important and over. So G20 started after I think 96, 97 after Asian financial crisis, around 2008. After the financial crisis in 2008 it was so up until that time, the first decade it was limited to finance track onies of finance ministries etcea but and national banks etcetera Then the 2008. After the 2008 financial crisis it was elevated to the leaders level. And you know, so that’s where I think, if I remember correctly, in Heligndam, Prime Minister Manm Muhan Singh made an important announcement at that time, that you know, India’s emissions, will always remain below the per capita level of developed countries. Something to that effect, you know, but that was kind of indicating throwing the gauntlet at developed countries that if you really want us to act then why don’t you reduce your greenhouse gas emissions significantly. And over time, you know, so it has grown in importance and because it has been in emerging economies now for last three, four years and Indonesia, India, it has become prominent in our psychiety. also I mean you know, for India, for us in, as stated by the Foreign Minister, G20 was available for India to get ready for the world and for the world to get ready for India. Right. So that was a political ambition behind it and that’s why we gave it a lot of visibility, you know, both domestically and internationally. So to emphasize that we are an active player in the global geopolitical arena. So that is why for us it became important. But it is important for also this reason that this is one of the few forums where you know, G7 and Viix come together to thresh out ideas and find a way forward to move together. yeah. So I, I hope that answers your question.

Sandeep Pai: Yeah, definitely. Thanks for explaining it in such a comprehensive manner.

Shreya Jai: Yeah. So now I just want to take this conversation. I think the overarching explanation of G20 was extremely helpful. just want to take it back to the focus of the show which is climate and energy. So just wondering, Prabhat, if you are able to just kind of explain, you know, the energy and climate issues which are taking center stage or which took center stage in India’s G20 and like is it going to be the same? Did that happen in Brazil? Is it going to be same? Like how is the interplay of climate and energy issues and G20.

 Dr. Prabhat Upadhyaya: Sure. So I think one important aspect to bear in mind is that G20 does not have a permanent secretariat like UNFCCC for example, or they have a permanent UNFCC C is the permanent secretary for UNFCCC process. With G20 the host country has to create a secretariat and then once the G20 ends, it has to wrap up the secretariat. So, so, so you know, so it’s Like a circus in that sense. It’s constantly moving. But then what it does is you know, so the challenge is to ensure continuity. And plus this is not a govern, it’s all voluntary, it’s not governed by international law per se. So how do you ensure accountability dimension of it? So that’s the tricky part, you know, so those two are very ticky. And so it very much depends on any given country what are its geitical priorities and what does it want to move forward. and at any given time that what does it see as the important aspect. So for us in because of you know, Covid and because of the various supply chain constraint we climb and also broadly climate and energy was important that we want to shift away from fossil fuels. So that’s why it was given such an important space, significance of central space, in the overall G20 agenda. But traditionally it has been finance, Finance like the form of international financial architecture. how do we make sure that when we’re talking of development finance etc. That’s made available to developing countries on favorable terms and etc. So even if you look at the G20 structure, there are two primary tracks. One is the finance track which is led by the national Ministry of Finance or national treasury and then it has eight, seven to eight working groups dealing on different aspects of finance etc. But that’s led by finance ministry, one single ministry. Then there is a sharepar track which is now led by the foreign, Ministry of External affairs in India, DURCO in South Africa and then it has various 15 working groups now which are led by respective line ministries. so you know that becomes much more broader that sense. So it’s not and then something like climate is not only negotiated here but it’s negotiated in UNIFCCC and UNIF C is the forum now. So that creates a bit of tension that you know, can G20 take decisions, it can agree on things but that doesn’t mean that all of the other countries will have to agree on that. So that creates a tension between the climate is in the how it plays out in G20 and how it plays out in unifle C space. so thankfully for India had we had our leaders summit planned out in September whereas COP summits take place in November, December. So you know we could, we didn’t have to worry about them playing side by side as it played out in Brazil this year or in Indonesia last year. Right. Because then it creates like who’s going to take the decision? Is it the ministers or is the leaders? And that creates doesn’t create very helpful scenarios. But whereas in our case because we could push for ambition, we had engaged almost all countries, everybody was keen to bring in ambition. Also the tripling of renewable energy targets, including getting the face billions to trillions of climate finance. There was a consensus on that and then the UAE presidency could take those things and use the next two months to build consensus around them in, in the coug, process and they could then be adopted during those negotiations. So, so yeah, so I think that is the dynamics Brazil unfortunately from my perspective, Brazil tried to have a task force on climate. the ambition was to bring the climate and finance discussions much more closer. I think because of various reasons it couldn’t achieve those ambition in that sense. Right. And task force again is not a formal, a fixed structure of the G20. So it will not be taken over by South Africa. It could have been, but south because of the political sensitivities. And you’ve already spent one year on trying to do that. You don’t want to spend again and again. So that will not be part of South African agenda. But there are other avenues where climate energy remains important. and there is lot that South Africa shares with India in terms of its energy mix. so you know, heavy coal dependence, etc. So I think, I mean Sandipu worked with colleagues in South Africa also. So you know, so that there are similarities there and there will be things, you know, which we will see a lot of similarities compared to the Indian G20. But of course one major difference is that in under the Indian presidency there was agreement trees to include African Union as the newest member of G20. now African Union has participated in the Brazilian G20 and will participate in South African G20 and it will have much more closer dynamics with South African government. So you know, so that how that will play out because African Union is not the biggest, like strongest economy. So that difference, how will that play out? That needs to be seenabat.

Shreya Jai: this is fascinating. Just one really like out of curiosity, like you said, the one distinction between G20 and a UN TRCCC is one is like a permanent Secretary. At the other it is rotational. So country’s agenda really can dominate what the G20 process could look like. But is there continuity? If a big decision has been taken, could that be rescinded? Because this country doesn’t have that. For example, just to play devil’s advocate, we had you know, tripling of renewables as a G20 call. Could, I mean South Africa won’t do that, but let’s in a very hypothetical situation like could South Africa decide that we want to rescend that? Is that a possibility? And the second question I have is when these declarations happen, there is no implementation pathway for this or monitoring pathway, right? Or is there a way to monitor any decision that has been taken? So just to summarize, the first question is around can major decisions be rescinded? In theory, of course, maybe nobody will do it. and the second question was around any kind of I mean I don’t want to call it monitoring but like the spirit is like can you monitor like what you have declared in the previous G20S?

 Dr. Prabhat Upadhyaya: Suneep quickly on the second, Let me start with the second first. So I’ll give you an example. In 2009, G20. I think if you go back that far you will find a language on fossil fuel subsidy reform, inefficient fossil fuel subsidy. And you know, and if you see the declaration, that’s almost the same language keeps on repeating and there was a phrase in the medium term, so that was in 2009. We are sitting in 20, 24, 25. If 15 years is not medium term then I don’t know what is medium term. Right? so, so, so, so you know one has to, but you also have to be recognized that you know, you have amongst G20 one of the biggest fossil fuel producers, right? U, who for whom? This is the question of you know, around which their economy is based. And over time if you look at us, US is now one of the biggest fossil fuel producers, right? So there are interest there which make it very hard to actually move in concrete terms. But, but you know, so again South African G20 is the, is the last country to host G20 presidency in the first cycle, right? So, so now what South Africa has announced is that it is going to do a review of G20 over the last 20 years. And so that question that you have asked, theoretically that will be answered there. But you know, what has G20 agreed to over the years? What has it done? Has it been. And so we hope that you know, we will get some strong responses on that and then the, from next year, it goes back to us for the first presidency of the next cycle and given the, the domestic politics in US will have to essentially see where it will go from, from there. You know that there are a lot of things that, that dynamics will play out. so I think that answers your second question on the first in sending. Look, it’s, it’s, it’s not a legally, as I mentioned, it’s not a legally binding convention. So in theory, you know, you can’t hold anybody to account. You know it’s because anyways it’s decision by political leadership and leadership in a given country changes. Today it’s one one party government and tomorrow will be another. So you know, they might just say that we don’t. So for example, I mean in this year corp cop 29 Argentina on the second or third of negotiation called back its negotiating team because there’s a new government in Argentina and they don’t believe in climate science. Right. So you can’t practically do these things and Argentina is part of G20 also. So that has consequences on how G20 gets managed. So in theory they canen but you know practically it need not happen. You don’t, you can just say you don’t want to make reference to that particular aspect. You can stay silent on that particular thing. You don’t have to descend necessarily that particular thing. so that is why sometimes it’s important to ensure that the same thing, even if it is no value at fossil fuel subsidy it is repeated again and again to at least keep it on the table.

Shreya Jai: Yeah, before I have to share, I do think that these messagings have a larger bearing. I mean it’s a very indirect thing but I definitely can say that because India declared a net zero, has it provided a big framework for many people to push ambitious climate policies without which those conversations even were tough and that the fact that tripling of renewables and all it has a more indirect pairing. So yeah, that means. Anyway, Shya, over to you. I’ve asked a bunch of questions in the middle.

Sandeep Pai: Yeah, I kind of wanted to continue on the same theme but wanted to understand something very different. when G20 happened here in India got a chance journalist like me to you know, look closely how this whole G20 planning works. what kind of importance you know, even simple terms like wood and could can have on the whole decision that the G20C presidency can come out with. so I am curious to understand how G20 as a platform influence climate issues not just for the host nations or the participating nations, but in general as a global discourse. See if tripling of renewable as we were discussing was decided in India’G20 then there was something around energy efficiency etc. We are yet to see it trickle down in Indian policy making. so I wanted to you know, understand the influence, larger influence or bearing that G20 as a platform has on specifically climate issues.

Dr. Prabhat Upadhyaya: Thanks, I got the gist of the question. I can respond to it. I think you know I’ll contrast it with the UNIF Policy C process again so Unif policy C because it’s dealing with one issue even if it’s very multifaceted issue. But you know, and because there’s a secretary you can go into Dept. And every year you can start from the where the conversation ended last year. There is s. Continuity and you can go deeper and deeper but you know, so that’s a technical in nature. That conversation is technical in nature. Right. But what G20 can bring is the. It can indicate the political will of the lead of the 20 biggest 20, 21 biggest economies in the world. It can indicate that you know, the leadership of these country wants signal that this is the direction where things should go. So, so that is the value add that G20 brings in. In terms of saying that look, we do not know how we are going to do this but this is where we want to be. And now it’s up to the various constitueintts, both state actors and non state actors to figure out how to get there. Because you know you can’t expect the leaders to be prescriptive. you, you just, you are, you are just indicating that this is a destination or this is a direction which you want to take and you know, and then leave it to the technical forums or technical negotating tracks such as UNFCCC and others to find out how to do that. now the flip side I think is also true. For example now if you look at us with the new administration coming in already we are seeing a lot of banks, American banks going back on their net. Zero announcements. Right? So that in that sense that the political direction and the speed at which that has to happen that becomes important. So it’s a tripling of renewable energy. I think that indicated that we want to go there, we want to be there fast. That is the signal that that comes, you know and then it gives a signal to m investors that this is the direction we are hoping and we are anticipating that the investment would go. So, so that I would say is the value add in terms of various non state actors. I think again it provides a framework, it provides a framework of in absence of global policy on any given thing it gives a certain global political will that you know that this is. If, if for example, if Putin and Biden can agree on this thingt then who are we to fight about this thing? I mean that is one can interpret it in that way that you know, if they are agreeing in spite of their differences, if they agree on chipping of renewable energy then why not. But then you know that, that, but then once the things change domestically then it kind of creates avues that. Okay. You know, and that is why we need to then again bring in the repetition, you know, that you know, we stick to this political direction or not.

Shreya Jai: so just taking this forward, like I think you touched upon this but maybe we would like to just go more deeper on this. Like with the Indian G20 experience and now with the South African G20 experience. And I know the civil society works slightly differently, you know, in both countries. Like what role could non state actors, civil society play in? Do they have any influence or could they influence in any way in making G20 more ambitious for climate? And if they could, and I’m scratching, I’m getting into your notebook, what could be some broader strategies. Not asking for like nitty gritties and details but like what kinds of issues can they raise that might have resemblance?

 Dr. Prabhat Upadhyaya: Okay, so I think, I think the first aspect that you need to be really cognizant of is when we’re talking of non state actors, two aspects, non set actors. That’s a lot of factors. It’s from civil society to business also. Right. So they all fallolded at the same time. When we are again talking of non set actors, there are those actors who want to take strong action on climate, there are those non set actors who do not want to take strong action on climate and then there are those non set actors who want to see action elsewhere which is not related to climate energy. And all these actors, because G20 is very broad canvas, all these actors are at play. So it’s not only one climate constituency who is at play but there is say health is at play. so, so for example again going back to if you look at non detector then we are looking at the engagement groups in the G20 which is to give you, you know, it could be civil 20, it could be think 20, it could be business 20, youth 20, woman 20, you know, all these actors now business 20, for example in a country like South Africa, which is heavily dominated by fossil fuel, might have a very different interpretation of where South Africa should go compared to civil society right now. But if you were to unpack the civil society in a country where civil society is very vocally active, such as South Africa, and we are witnessing it, you know, they might be struggle within the civil society as well. All these tensions and all these contestations need to play out to finally have any influence on, you know, but the good thing about G20 is that it’s not dependent on any one working group or engagement. So, so in that sense it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s strategic because then you can, you can you’re not dependent on you know, success or failure of any one group. You can look at 10 different working group and see that you know, we strategize a bit, we approach it from various angles, you know, and that is kind of what my role has been in this new role to say that look, this is, understand the gating, this structure. You don’t have to obsess about any one working group only you need to see which are the different actors and from where all we can get the entry point. And then see, you know, you diversify your risk in that sense and then you see where you can get the most mileage. And accordingly, even if you, you know, you might be very close to a certain constituency but you feel that it’s not going as per, you know, your objectives, then you have to be hardcore about, about those and then say that look, in the larger scheme of things this is where ideally things should have come, but this is not happening. So let’s try some other angle. So that is, so that’s a strategy that you know, you need to be nimble footed on this thing. and then I think it’s not just, it’s important that there are boots on the ground, right. A lot of the time we have seen this in the Indian G20 also witnessing this here, you know, trying to influence the process from AF doesn’t really go much far honestly. You know, you have to find those who are in that domestic context who can actually do things on the ground. Without that it won’t have much influence. So and then to find those actors, you know, and to understand the dynamics between those actors, all that is important. And I think that’s where luckily for me, because I’ve lived in South Africa for four, four and a half years. So that gives me an edge because you know there are a lot of South Africans who know South Africa and out but there are very few of them who understand G20 as well. So, so that, that again speaks to the connecting the dots no kind of thing.

Sandeep Pai: that’s great. Just to you know, summarize it all together. I wanted to understand from you, rather get a forecast of sorts. What are the top three top five things to look forward to in South Africa G20 in terms of both energy transition and climate action? This is a very selfish question because my reporting depends on it.

 Dr. Prabhat Upadhyaya: Climate and energy is not going anywhere. I mean it is going to. so I can tell you this, that you know during the Indian G20 presidency, the biggest issue that was not resolved until the last was Russia, Ukraine, those two paragraphs. But if before then if there was any other issue which was left unresolved in the last moment was climate energy. So it demands that kind of attention on a regular ongoing basis and’it’s not gonna, given the geopolitical tensions, competition it is. So your reporting is not on the threat and the resources are in the threat, but not your reporting share. So, so don’t worry about that things. I mean, I mean if there are fires in, I mean in December, January, there are such big fires in Northern hemisphere right now. I mean so. But coming back to what we can get from what we can expect from South Africa, I think the first is from my perspective, the Overall review of G20 and I hope that you know, there will be something on climate and energy that you know, that is this is what we have been promising and you know, whether our promises and implementation, whether they are going, whether the gap between the two is reducing, or it remains the same. So that would be the one thing, second I think on climate, I think that would be a bit of a challenge because COP30 in Brazil will happen before the leaders Summit, the G20I leaders summit. So that creates a tension that in the sense that Cop 30 cannot look to the leaders for signal, it has to resolve things by themselves. But that would mean, is that the best signal that can come from G20 this is at the ministerial level, not at the leaders level. And the ministers are the same ministers which will negotiate in UN policyC and G20. So I, I think from a from a technical perspective you will not see much progress from political possibly. But I think that the biggest gain they can do is to find a way after the COP 29 outcomes which, which you know, not everybody has been happy with to so sort of find a way to rebuild some trust or if it not rebuild a testust not make sure that we press pause on the spiraling down of the discourse. So I mean that is important. I can’t you know we can’t have major breakthroughs unless there is trust reestablished and that there is you know this thing that the negotiations will happen in good faith and not hold on to numbers till the last two days and you know, so all those things, the processes are important in that sense. On energy, I think South Africa has been experimenting with what we refer to as country platform, the jetp just energy transition, partnerships, etceca, all that stuff. So I think that with which, which India hasn’t engaged with but you know there might be countries which are smaller than us for whom this platform might work, this kind of structure might work. So you know something on that, that you know what learnings from that, what South Africa has done and what it has learned etc. And what you know. So that could be another dimension to see how do we refine these countries platform to serve the needs of the countries and not go by the donor. The other is on the finance track. I think on the finance you know there has been discussion on something called cost of capital commission, something. I mean the shape and form is still under a bit of a flux but you know how can you m make finance or lending in a way that doesn’t create debt traps for developing countries, particularly African countries. So that will also be an important aspect. And then I think you know, I mean for Indian foreign ministry now Africa is an important you know, partner. so from that perspective for South Africa, enhancing the profile of African Union, you know that will be definitely an important avenue and you know given that many African countries have a lot of resources that are critical from energy transitions perspective I think that will be a good thing. And you know how so the critical mineral space and how does that unfold all those things. We can see some progress, we can expect some progress from G20, the South Africa this year which will be off if not direct, if not primary then secondary consequence of how things pan out in India in that sense.

Sandeep Pai: Thank you. that’s lot of food for thought on a lot of topics. thanks again for this 360 degree view of the issue. We will close the conversation now. Thank you for covering all what was possible. I hope we could have talked a bit longer but I believe we’ll have you back after the South Africa G20 but thank you again. It was a fantastic conversation and we could not have asked for a better start for our fifth season. so thanks again for joining us.

Shreya Jai: Prabhad and Prabhad, thank you from my side also. I really learned a lot. I’m walking out of this conversation with some really interesting ideas of what we can also do. and so thank you. Thank you for your time.

 Dr. Prabhat Upadhyaya: Thanks thanks for having me, Sandee and share. Looking forward to engaging with you.

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