Role of State Owned Enterprises in the Energy Transition | ft.  Mr. Deepak Tandon

[Podcast intro]

Welcome to the season five of the India Energy Hour podcast. This podcast explores the most pressing hurdles and promising opportunities of India energy transition through an in depth discussion on policies, financial markets, social movements and science. Your hosts for this episode are Shreya Jai, Delhi based energy and climate journalist and Dr. Sandeep Pai, Washington based energy transition researcher and author. The show is produced by 101 reporters, a pan India network of grassroots reporters that produces original stories from rural India. If you like our podcast, please rate us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts or the platform where you listen to our podcast. Your support will help us reach a larger audience.

State-Owned Enterprises (SoEs) in the Oil & Gas sector play a critical role in ensuring energy security for the country. They are among the most diversified entities, spanning the entire oil & gas value chain—from upstream to downstream operations. But as India moves toward its net zero goals, the question arises: Can oil & gas SoEs diversify into clean energy sectors? What challenges must they overcome to adapt? And how can they improve carbon management in a Net Zero India?

To explore the evolving role of Oil & Gas SoEs in India’s energy transition, we spoke with Mr. Deepak Tandon, Executive Director of the Carbon Management and Sustainability Group at ONGC Ltd. With over four decades of experience in Indian SoEs, Mr. Tandon shares invaluable insights into how SoEs future in a net zero India.

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[Podcast interview]

Sandeep Pai: Mr. Tandon, it’s really a pleasure to have you on the podcast, We have interacted on various occasions, but I wanted to sit down with you and kind of understand the role that PSU can play in India’s energy transition. But before we get into the topic itself, let’s start with you. You know, you, you have had a long career. You know, you’ve been working with the PSU for a long time. So why don’t we start from our standard question in this podcast, which is where are you from? What did you study? How did you get into a PSU? How have been your journey? And, and yeah that we would love to start with that.

 Mr. Deepak Tandon: So, basically, I am born and brought up in Delhi. Okay. So, let me tell you, I am the product of this you can say the government subsidized education. So I studied in government aided school. So my fees was not much, just 3 rupees, and it was all government funded. So I am fortunate that, by that whatever money government of India spent, I am able to return it back in one way or the other. So then I did my undergraduate from Hansraj College of Delhi University, then I was did my MSC in with the specialization in organic chemistry from, again, the Delhi University, but registration with the Hansraj College. That is in North Delhi campus. Then, after completing my MSC, I qualified that CSIR and UGC net examination national eligibility test also. I was All India ranked twenty eighth in that. And I was doing research work on if you that was totally a different aspect, the role of glyco conjugates in malignancy. Okay? So the role of glycol, I was doing the I was working on two dimensional and number. Right now, these things are quite advanced. I’m talking of nineties, ’80 ‘9 ’90, but at that juncture, the jobs were very few. Even if you are post doc post doc trade or other thing, getting a job was a difficult aspect in those days. Right now, after Nasim Marau government, when the market opened up with the Montek Singh Louvalia and asked why our honorable prime minister, mister Madan Mohan Singh. Job opportunities were quite less. So while doing research, I was also, appearing for the competitive examination. Though I qualified for the civil services, but in interview, I could not make it. And then this opportunity came for with the one GC. So in ’19 I passed out MSC in 1988. And in 1989, on first September, I joined ONGC as a young graduate trainee at our Dehradun. Now it is known as, two GC Academy. In those days, this was called Institute of Management Development. After rigorous training of six months, that was both on job training, field familiarization training. I was posted in Gandhar with the drilling operations. I was basically a drilling fluid engineer. So from there, I worked seven years in Ankleshwar. I was associated with the if you remember, in the in early nineties, we got, funds from Asian Development Bank to develop this Gandhar field. The that that is the biggest find after Bombay. That is the only biggest find way back in mid eighties. That was the biggest find. And, Gandhar, we development during the the Gandhar development project, I was associated as a shift chem drilling fluid engineer.
Then I was transferred to Assam. There, I started, I was associated in the processing of affluent treatment plant. So the effluent which is being generated during the production, it has to be disposed of either in the ground or into the river after giving proper treatment as per the state pollution control board norms or as per the, your central pollution control board. From there, somehow or the other, I have a inclination towards environment. Then in 2000, I was transferred to Bombay/Mumbai. And here again, I was associated with that drilling activity. I used to work in the off I used to go to the off shore drilling rigs. From 2000 to 2011, that is was the phase of Mumbai high redevelopment phase one and phase two to arrest that decline in production. Now we are in phase six. Phase five is underway, and we are already talking phase six. You might have heard lot of, in the newspaper that ONGC has, signed a production enhancement contract with the BP, their state their Indian subsidiary BP for production enhancement because that decline is there. We need to arrest decline. Whatever we have taken steps, whatever schemes we have implemented, we at right now, we are unable to do it. So let’s see if external how external help can help us. Then in 2011, I was transferred to corporate planning section in New Delhi, and that changed the entire gamut how to look at the other side of the coin. Because I was providing the secret services to the executive committee of ONGC. That is the topmost that is, you can say, after board. In board, you have independent directors, government directors, and functional directors. Prior to putting any investment decision to the board or some, major decision, these decisions are being taken at the executive committee level. So for full ten day years, I was associated in the providing sector job. So that was a you can say a turning point in my career wherein I have the opportunity to see how the investment decisions are being made, what are the problems. There only I came across this carbon management and sustainability group. Because in 2007, this group was formed in ONGC because, in 2005 & 2006, when government of India was bidding for some overseas blocks in, Central Africa and, this Latin America and Russian, then there was a requirement that you should have with this department other than your HSE, that is occupational health, safety, and environment, which will completely look into environmental aspects. Then in 2011, this, when the system department of public enterprises came up with the sustainability development guidelines, then this, department in which currently I am heading was rechristened at the carbon management and sustainability group with the aim to increase it and build. So during those days when I was, right now, I am at e 9 level. I was at that time, I was just e 5 or e 6. In 2011, I was e 5. And in 2006, I was at e so all these projects proposal used to come on the GFG mitigation, your between abatement that, GMI was then only I came to know. Yes. OGC is has signed an MOU with the US EPA for this, McCain to market, which later has been rechristened as GMI. That is global methane initiative, which is an action oriented program wherein you undertake, the these surveys. And, and once leak detection surveys are conducted and accordingly maintenance program is being undertaken to arrest those leaking. And, then only I came to know of the CDM projects. And all these CDM projects under UNFCC, that was, under Kyoto protocol, and which India was signatory in 2005. And, that under commitment period one, we will do this much reduction in carbon emissions. Under commitment period two, this was because 2015, this Paris declaration has changed those things. So all these things, came to used to fascinate me. Then in 2020, when COVID came, Again, we were not prepared. Then this digitization, prior to unfortunately  in 2018, I have undertaken an exercise, and I have digitized all the available records right from 1983 till 2018 and onwards. Everything was digitized. And we started conducting meetings in a paperless mode, and we I was also associated for the development of portal and the process wherein, all these proposals can be trans put up in a completely paperless mode. Then in 2020, March’ 26, right now, as we are having a virtual meeting, then we because that was the time on 26 March when honorable prime minister complete curfew was, the whole country was locked down. And the country was looking to PMO. And, our organization was looking to top management what to do. Then on within two days, we created an infrastructure for conducting these virtual meetings, etc. And every morning, I can tell you, for others, it was a lockdown, maybe a good time. But I used to get up at 06:00 and sleep at my laptop used to be closed at in the middle of 12 midnight. And I used to send whatever the meetings, Twice meetings used to be conducted to our top management. Whatever they used to discuss, I used to mini ties them, circulate among all the directors, then I used to send it to the, for the corrections, whatever I have understood, whether it is I have correctly corrected or not. And then, whatever the previous, meeting actions we have sent, within a week, I used to take what actions have been taken and used to send it to CMD. And CMD said, let me tell you, at that juncture, even in middle of the night, I used to send him in the morning 06:00. I used to have his inputs. Okay. So Alright. This is how we worked during those days. Then I was again transferred to, this Bombay in 2021 when, Delta was we was at peak. Then I was associated with the as a handling fluid services. I used to provide the all the fluid operation services for the offshore operation, be it Western offshore or eastern offshore. There are also some problems were there because of the corona. All the material was not available. We faced lot of issue, then this land border notification came from government of India, which debarred that you cannot, export things from that. So those were the tough times. Somehow, the other week came, we managed to sail across because that was the time when, suddenly, this, in Middle East, region, drilling activities started picking up again and, getting of the requisite raw material was quite a challenging task. Somehow or the other, we managed to do it, then we went from instead of going for straightaway procurement, we started, hiring the services, etc. And now everything is in place, so things have started moving. But the those are the some of the tough time. Then in August 23, I was given this charge of additional charge of carbon management as well as hydraulic fluid services. So for 3 days, I used to come in Bombay. 3 Days, I used to come to Delhi, and I met I can probably say that I successfully managed because then that was the time I worked closely with and then we found up this net zero strategy for the ONGC, that decarbonization strategy, which is available publicly. I think we are the only PSU or, say, Indian company who has publicly made its strategy available in the public domain, how we are going to decarbonize our operational ambitions. So this was basically that also changed the things, and I can probably say to this year, climate action 100 plus, that that is a investor led, initiative. They too have acknowledged at their site the in the our decarbonization strategy. I don’t think so. Any company has published such an exhaustive document in the public domain. So after that, we, during that COP twenty eight, we also in November 23, we also signed this OGDC. We were signatory to OGDC. Somehow or the other, it came stuck to me that once if because, this optical gas imaging cameras, we were having under US EPA, but there were some restriction. US sanctions were there. Procurement of these things was quite difficult. So we, manage those things, but there were restrictions from US EPA that you can only you have to procure only this flare. You cannot purchase from a other manufacturer. So and that, equipment did not work because it during 2010, it costed us 1.23 cm. That is a huge money. So, then I start I because we have our own remote sensing division in KDMIP, Keshav de Malbia Institute of Petroleum, I contacted their head of the department and asked them, can you help us in monitoring this methane or carbon dioxide emissions through some open sources? So then they came out, yes. We have the capability, this GoSat or, your this Tropima are the two satellites to which we can try. So initially, we gave only for three, four sites, six sites to monitor for six months. The results started encouraging, then we scaled it up. So this is how my, that down journey . No. This this is then another part was there that our ESG performance was very bad. As such, on GCA, ESG ratings were taking a hit. So, then I accepted this challenge also, and, I worked closely with KPMG and also with the I have taken the help of Gallard also who were, assigned that, this assignment of preparation of our BRSR report and integrated report. And, by generally, these are two one of the conflicting teams. Right. Because KPMG and Deloitte cannot come sit together. So I convinced them. I brought together them. We worked together as a team. And I now I can probably say that this year, CDP from f that is, we were not disclosing to them we have attained b negative rating.

Sandeep Pai: Right. A big leap.

 Mr. Deepak Tandon: It’s a big leap. But coming to a standard, achieving the height is easier. Maintaining that height is going to be tough. Because now, once you set up your standard, you have achieved that step. Now to either you have to climb beta or you have to maintain that ladder, maintain that position. It is going to be difficult. Big chance. Big chance. Because Yeah. I will tell you. But this reminds me, if you remember, I think you must be aware, in mid eighties, Wolwolter was. And every time he used to go, he used to raise his bar six meters, 6.05, six point two five. So that that man goal has always become an inspiration for me that you set your bar your for yourself and try to attain. Failures will be there. I do agree. Failures will be there, but if there you have a strong will, you will be able to. This is what is my only journey. And probably now, again, I will be shifted to some other role. So maybe it’s hardly I don’t know. It’s when but things, as fillers are there. So, again, some bigger assignment is waiting for me, so I will be doing I will try to do justice whatever is there.

Sandeep Pai: Well, this is such a fascinating just to hear your journey from, you know, drilling in in fields and in very remote areas all the way to corporate planning to then thinking about, you know, honestly, 21st century issues of climate and carbon management and methane. It’s been such a fascinating journey to hear. I want to ask one kind of more big picture follow-up question. I mean, you have seen a PSU and, of course, you’re talking about ONGC, but I’m sure you know about your peers and other PSUs in India. How are they evolving? Like, how is a PSU evolving? I mean, I can imagine that a private sector can move very quickly on as because topics are moving fast. So is it it may be easier for them, but is it big challenge for a PSU to keep up with the modern topics?

 Mr. Deepak Tandon: See, as far as the PSU’s are concerned, there is a myth, I would say. Rather, our board has got more autonomy in taking decision than any. Government is there to support us, I will say. You come up with the proposal with proper justification, government always backs up. And particularly, I would say when honorable prime minister in COP26, he has declared by 2070, we will be net zero. In 2070, he has told that we will be net zero. By 2030, our total energy demand will be met 50% will be through the renewables. So there is a big shift in the government also. So government is also pushing and trying to provide the necessary regulatory frameworks. They are seeking our inputs how to move ahead. See, recently, I happen to have an interaction with secretary MSME because our economy, MSME, has a major role to play. Then if you look at the SEBI recent guidelines where in they have said that BRSR code, that is you have to do your value chain assessment. Value chain assessment by, see, these pushes are, pushing the PSUs or any corporate to incorporate the pinpoints of MSMEs,  And other sectors and to take along them. Unless and until we educate, we provide hand holding to the MSMEs or other sectors, we cannot attain net zero. So, I can tell you, last June, we conducted a workshop on this, wherein we called our value chain partners. Of course, they were big value chain partners like Halliburton or Baker and Huges or for that matter, Simons and, other, Carlton, etc. They are the big players or see water, etc. They have already started they have assessed their value chain partners, tier one, tier two, tier three, and they are taking steps. So in India, also, this is what secretary of MSME was telling us. Whatever you are doing, please share your knowledge and tell us what we should do for the MSME sectors, how to, enhance their capabilities so they are ready for this. Particularly, you know, the CBAM is now a reality. It’s a time. It’s a matter of time. Though India is taking a stand, they are trying, but the things may delay maybe for a year or two. Ultimately, to increase their employment, European Union has come up with cement. So if we want to be we, want to, export our products to them, maybe cement or steel, because Europe is a big importer of steel, and India is a has a major, roles to play. We need to look into we have to start thinking in those terms. And that’s why, you know, key government is coming soon. RBI has also come up with the draft notification on green bonds. SBI has also come up with how they are going to look, the companies while investing in or while funding anything from the ESG lens. So this is going to these are some of the steps which government is also pushing. So as such, PSU has a major role to play in the energy transition on the climate issues by incorporating these things in their business strategy and providing hand holding to the MSCME on other sectors, then, things can really we can achieve VCSID Bharat by 2047 ’47, which is the dream of our honorable prime minister.

Sandeep Pai: Alright. You you touched upon a very, very important point. I think you explained what the role of PSUs would be in the energy transition, almost like an ecosystem builder, you know, with MSMEs and in other sectors. I just have one question, and I think oil companies have much more experience on this than, say, the power companies or mining coal mining companies, which is to diversify your business. Could you touch upon, like, I mean, oil companies, let’s say, for example, an oil company which started out as a, you know, production company. Now it’s doing petrochemicals. Now it’s doing now maybe getting into solar with could you explain, like, the imperatives of business diversification for our oil and gas sector?

Mr. Deepak Tandon: See, I will tell you in, 2011, the then chairman, mister Sudhir Vasudeva, has formed up the prospective plant 2030. Correct? In that, he has already started thinking because I happen to be working in the corporate planning. So I can see from that lens how they were taking these things. Because at that juncture, we were having brownfields. And, Rapsol has Rapsol is a Spanish company. I happened to convene that meeting with our executive committee along with the our overseas arm, how they managed to match, manage their mature field in Latin America. What were what business strategy they have. So similarly, during 2030, we dreamt of 30 hundred gigawatts of renewable energy by 2030. It’s a different story that we could not reach. Then but the vision was there. It is not that, that this vision is coming right in 2025. The vision was already there. You can check at the European Union side that we have even thought of setting up biorefineries using rice husk in collaboration with Massey’s Compolis. This MOU was signed way back in 2013.

Sandeep Pai: So so you’re saying that the vision of diversification started pretty early.

Mr. Deepak Tandon: This vision was very much there. That oil besides oil and gas, because this climate action plan, etcetera, these all these things started in embedded in our business strategy way back, I would say, in 2010. So from 15 years see, that could not be implemented because some reason or the other, that is a different scenario. But this thinking has already started coming in our boardrooms. So. That and as you are quite aware that, India has taken a stand that we will not phase down. Phase out. Sorry. We will not phase out coal. We will phase down fossil fuels. And fossil fuels are going to remain till 2050. That is sure. They are going to play a major role. Only thing that gas based economy, there will be a thrust on the cleaner fuel on the gas based economy. Right now, we are already had the share of, say, 5 to 6%. It will increase to 15 or 18% in our energy basket.

Sandeep Pai: Right. So for a company point of view, like, you’re looking at one or two sectors or a series of sectors for diversification?

Mr. Deepak Tandon: See, in that 2030 document, we thought of building refining capacity also. I don’t exactly remember, the exact name, but that is the only thing we achieved as per 2030. And then there was a plan to tweak as per 5 year planning. Now that 5 year plan, planning commission has been renamed as NITI, IOG or what so ever, but that sort of mechanism is there. So accordingly, we have to tweak our business strategy also as for the country’s vision. So diversification in the pack camp, in the green hydrogen, all or from the waste to energy, all these things were there, and the pilot scale, some technological demonstration we have already done. It’s the other thing. We also tried for going, with the nuclear also. There is a accelerated growth plan which was, formed up. So all these things were started coming way back in 2011-2012. Now it is that government is also giving push. No. We should go. But at that juncture, see, rice husk was not a problem. It was easily available. But then there was a problem. It is not available around the year. So these were some of the technical issues which crop up. Because of that, we could not set up bio refineries for the biodisals, etcetera. But now we are going going ahead.

Sandeep Pai: Right. Okay. Great. This is this is fantastic. Thank you for explaining that. Let’s get into the meet of the topic, which we have interacted in the past about, which is the role of methane  mitigation, in oil and gas facilities. And in the long term as climate becomes even more stronger push, I know that ONGC as you mentioned, like is part of various global frameworks, EPA partnerships, etc, like in the long term, what role could methane mitigation play in India’s climate policies?

Mr. Deepak Tandon: See, as far as oil and gas sector is concerned, already technologically, things are moving. I can tell you we are already taking a very exhaustive extensive study. My team has already in the field for undertaking extensive of ground surveys for the leak detection program. Once those the findings of those results will come up, then a road map for leak detection program will be formed up, how much money we need to spend, what exactly then the techno commercial case will be formed up accordingly. That scaling up would let me tell you all these things. Whatever I’m telling you, these are my personal view. Company strategy can be a different aspect. So methane is an important aspect because it is a low hanging fruit. The easiest thing to do is control your flare. You, detect your methane, carry out maintenance program. And because if you detect and sell these molecules in the market, it’s a lost opportunity. And the market, as of now, globally, as per, IEA, it is 12,000,000,000 US dollar market, which is a lost revenue in the form of fugitive methane emissions alone. And the the only way I would say is the thing is, West should come up with a more collaborative approach. See, if I want to carry out this drone survey of Ayusha, only for the two installations, the cost they have put up to me is 2 lakh $27,00752 euros.

Sandeep Pai: Right. That’s a big number.

Mr. Deepak Tandon: That is a I would say, 2.8 CR just for acquisition of data. And then it has to be reconciled with your satellite, with your drone data, than with the ground service. Ground survey, I am already taking off my own. So there I am spending money. It’s just peanuts, settle, like, I you know? But 2.8 c m for the drone survey, then if I go for the GFG set because I have, also had a a word with ISRO. ISRO also bank upon GNG. And the GNG side data is not coming free. Point 3,000,000 US dollar per site, By weekly data on an annual basis. I have 165  sites. Now they are telling you we will come up with a different proposal. That isn’t the I’m a those negotiations are still going on. But the thing is, considering the amount of it has a larger climate implication, West should hand hold us, Southeast Asia or South Asia or the Central Asia countries to undertake these studies at a cost now, which can help us to have an actual business case.

Sandeep Pai: What would be the cost at which it would have a business case for this?

Mr. Deepak Tandon: See, I have already spoken a lot on this in different forums. See, data acquisition cost is the one part, Maintenance is another. Then they you have another goal that you have to meet your country energy demand. And for undertaking maintenance, the activity, you have to close the wells. The loss of production, nobody is going to take. Even government is not going to support us. If you are in the shoe of government, when your import bill is of 1,220,000,000,000 US dollar, only for the import your oil import will you take? So this is the main challenge we have to think in. See, $48,300,000 we can spend. Then another, say, a hundred million US dollar or 200,000,000 US dollar on the maintenance program, that is not the issue. But the loss of production so you have to look at the things in a holistic manner.

Sandeep Pai: Right. So there is a initial challenge of let me summarize and you can correct me if I’m wrong. There’s an initial challenge of data acquisition, detection, etcetera, that you can manage. There is another challenge of maintenance. The maintenance itself, you can manage, broadly manage. But the loss of shutting down for maintenance is the major impudent.

Mr. Deepak Tandon: That is a major issue.

Sandeep Pai: Yeah. Okay.

Mr. Deepak Tandon: And we have to think we have to come up with the solution.

Sandeep Pai: Right. So what would your ask be? Like, what the solution would be?

Mr. Deepak Tandon: See, if you go globally, they will come up with the analytics, this thing, that thing. We have done this thing, that thing. We are having a, artificial intelligence of blah blah blah. All these things are is possibly with with our facilities, and we have the capability. That is not the issue. The main problem is your production. So if you have enough energy available, maybe through diversification. Then you can take a chance.

Sandeep Pai: Right. And it’s a good segue to bring it back to that diversification question. Because if PSUs in India diversify aggressively, make a bold plan, and, you know, then I think they will be able to contribute much more. Yeah.

Mr. Deepak Tandon: See, I would say we are not a very good our wind speeds are not conducive for wind energy. That is true.

Sandeep Pai: Yeah.

Mr. Deepak Tandon: And you need for one one megawatt. Right now, I don’t have those numbers because and let me tell you, that that data is available in our report. One megawatt, how much land parcel you will

Sandeep Pai: For solar.

Mr. Deepak Tandon: For solar. Correct. Then if you look at the solar, even glasses, you have to prepare the sand you need to import. Then after its life cycle, how to dispose of the real earth metals, how to do that. So these things are evolving. It will take time. But maybe after, say, 2030 or 2035, you may see that there is a strong leap. Because by the time this battery storage, etcetera, will come because you need RTC right now. Right now, you do round the unless and until you have a RTC, then only it makes a business sense for going for the renewable energy. Otherwise, there is no. So battery storage technology is involving, Hydrogen, green hydrogen technology is involving. And the technological breakthroughs will come only destructive breakthrough. We can only come maybe by 2030 or 2032. Then you will see a vast change in our energy landscape. Unless and until that technology does not come up, whether it is a methane mitigation, failure reduction, or improving efficiency, because you have a different goal. And no whosoever is there Yeah. Whether you, me, or our prime minister, he has to we have to look the picture at a holistic angle, which one is better for my energy needs. Because we have a diverse population, and it has a larger responsibility to uplift the larger population. So somewhere, some balance has to be made.

Sandeep Pai: For sure. Let me you know, we talked for almost a long time now. I have one sort of, like, last big picture question, which is, like, if if you were in a position to create a long term strategy, let’s say by twenty fifty, twenty seventy for Indian PSUs or even forget about Indian PSUs, like for the oil sector, what would that look like in a net zero India? Like, how would you want to see an ONGC or, you know, other POCs?

Mr. Deepak Tandon: See, I have already given you this answer. It we when we formed up to about 2030, we dreamt of hundred gigawatt of renewable. I’m not talking of anything else renewable. And yet to find discoveries, and already we have so now you are looking in 2011-2012, we conceived this KG DWM ninety eight by by two project. Today, it has started giving productions in 24-25. Now the oil has started crumbling from Bay Of Bengal, from the Godavari Basin. So from concept to execution, the minimum lead time is 10 – 15 years of a sing green projects. I’m talking I’m not talking of the brownfield projects. Right. And at right now, we are dependent mostly on our western offshore. And this infrastructure is quite critical for the national economy. So government of India has a major role to uplift the economy and lifestyle of each common citizen. So it may appear that PSUs are not doing enough to the outside world. But, actually, PSUs are doing much much what you can think.

Because I will again say, we thought of setting up biorefineries way back in 2012. Now this is becoming a reality.

Sandeep Pai: Right. So so long term strategy. Yeah. Long term strategies has to play a role in in for PSUs and in the energy transition?

Mr. Deepak Tandon: Forget about PSU. I would say long term strategy only vision 25, vision twenty seventy, which honorable prime minister has given. That is going to play. How to achieve that? That is a thing. If you are to talk he has given a vision. Twenty seventy, we should be net zero. So what are those steps needed? What is my projection economic growth? I can you can say, sir, at this juncture, India is not West can say, India is not doing enough. Yes. We are not doing enough. Agreed. But we have constraints. That hundred billion US dollar fund never has seen the light. Adaptation and mitigation fund. That’s just a responsibility. They have spoiled the climate, not us.

Sandeep Pai: Right. Right. No. This is great. Thank you so much. This has been a really 360-degree conversation from your life to the big picture questions about diversification, to specifics about methane and ending back with the vision of net zero. So thank you so much for your time. Really, really appreciate it.

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